As we approach episode 100 of Tiny Matters, we wanted to talk about how it all got started nearly four years ago and where we are headed! How did Sam and Deboki become co-hosts? What have they learned about the types of stories and episodes they are drawn to? What happens if an interview goes poorly? What is the American Chemical Society (ACS)? How about Multitude? Will we get 100 MORE episodes of the show? And more...
Transcript of this Episode
Sam Jones: Hi, Tiny Matters listeners, Sam here with Deboki per usual. So we've been doing a bunch of tiny show and tell us episodes as our bonus episodes, but we thought that because we're coming up on episode 100 of Tiny Matters, we thought we would do a kind of different bonus episode, but one that we've actually had listeners ask for at various points over the last year, which is sort of a check-in episode, an opportunity for us to talk about what the last almost four years have been like. That's crazy.
Deboki Chakravarti: For some reason in my head it feels like we are two years into this podcast and we're on episode like 28.
Sam Jones: But I also think my mind is blown when I remember that next year is 2026, which feels wrong. But yeah, I mean, we've come a really long way and it's fun because we still have listeners. I can tell just looking at the stats that people still go back and listen to our early episodes and I'm like, wait, but also listen to recent ones because we're better at this now. Yeah, yeah. It's just really fun. So people have written in saying, what inspired the podcast? How did you guys link up? What is the American Chemical Society? A lot of people think it's some weird trade organization or something. I'm like, no, no. We're a science nonprofit based in DC similar to something like AAAS or the Society for Neuroscience. We're just with chemists. So yeah. Anyways, I want to kind of talk about those things and also give us an opportunity to reflect on favorite episodes and those kinds of things. So first off, are there things that you feel like in the last four years you've learned about really anything? What our audience enjoys? What have you learned? I mean, I feel like I've learned a lot of science, but I've also learned a lot about podcasting and the industry, and I would love to hear some of the things that you've learned.
Deboki Chakravarti: Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest one that comes to mind right away is this is my first time really interviewing people. I had never, all of the science writing I had done before was me doing research, going into papers, going into whatever references are out there, and then writing based on that. But I wasn't really talking to scientists directly and interviewing them, asking them questions and all of that, and putting that all together. And so I remember when I first started writing for Tiny Matters, that was the thing I was so nervous about. I was like, how am I going to get on a phone call and talk to these scientists? They're going to think I'm so silly and I'm asking the dumbest questions, and I'm not going to be able to get anything good and no one's going to want to talk to me. And it's become something that I've really loved doing. It's become such a fun part of working on Tiny Matters. I mean, sometimes it's frustrating. Sometimes it's hard to hunt people down.
Deboki Chakravarti: Sometimes it's hard to figure out exactly how you want to approach a conversation...
Sam Jones: Or you go into it so excited and then the conversation goes kind of either doesn't go where you think it's going to, but not in a great way, or it kind of goes off the rails a little bit and you leave it thinking, is this even going to work for the episode, or do I even want to do the episode that I initially planned?
Deboki Chakravarti: Right. Yeah. So it's a really cool challenge in a way that I just am really excited to have learned from because it's challenging in a lot of the ways that I did expect I still get kind of imposter syndrome going into these conversations and thinking about what I'm going to be talking to people about and are they going to want to talk to me? Are they going to think that I am just some silly person asking them silly questions? But also I realize that, yeah, I am a silly person asking silly questions. That's kind of the job, and that's the point of it. And that's made it a lot of fun too, where it's like, yeah, I remember from when I was on the science side getting questions from people who weren't scientists, and those were always the questions that challenged me the most. Those were the ones that made me think so much more about my research.
In ways that I was taking for granted or just things I hadn't thought about. So I try to take inspiration from that because it's like, right, if I embrace the fact that I actually don't know what I'm talking about, and that's the point of the conversation, it becomes so much more exciting.
Sam Jones: Absolutely. I feel like definitely when I started, so I had done podcasting for a few years before Hopping into Tiny Matters. I had kind of a fun passion project podcast, and then I also was the writer and host of another American Chemical Society podcast, which was Sunset to Start Tiny Matters, which I'll talk about in a second. So I feel like I came into this feeling, I don't feel super intimidated by the interviews and this and the that, but I think what I learned and what I kind of knew, but what I really learned was something you mentioned, which was the thing that I thought would be my biggest flaw, which was just not knowing a lot of the science that we were going to cover. Having a PhD in something that was relatively niche actually became one of my biggest assets. Being able to say, I really don't understand this thing. Can you explain it to me? Because that is our audience, that audience that we are trying to reach with this podcast. We're not trying to reach people that, I mean, we do reach a lot of scientists, which is super fun. We get emails from scientists all the time saying, this helps me feel like I stay up to date in different fields outside of my own. And that is amazing.
Deboki Chakravarti: That’s awesome.
Sam Jones: And even undergrads saying, this podcast is making me really want to study one of the sciences. I mean, that's incredible. That feels so good. But we're also, I think of our audience oftentimes being people who don't have any academic training in science beyond college, or maybe even high school, but maybe in another life, in an alternate universe, they would have become scientists. So science is something that they love, but they didn't pursue.
Anyhow. So I think that having a podcast where, although both of us have graduate level training in the sciences, we're covering so many different topics. There's no way you can be an expert in everything or even close to anything. And so that's kind of been a good thing. Also, I will say, we did a survey I think about a year and a half ago at this point, and that was so valuable to hear from our listeners. I think we got 130 something people who filled out the survey, which was really great. And we learned kind of what you all enjoy, what you want more of and what you want less of. And the big things that we learned were that you wanted bonus episodes, and so we made them. That's where a tiny show and Kellis came from, and that you loved history, you loved the history element coming in with the science. All of our episodes we've tried to provide, we were already providing that. A lot of times we really try and provide that context because it's so fun. And I'm also a big science history person.
Deboki Chakravarti: Right? Yeah. Can I ask you a question?
Sam Jones: Yeah, yeah. Please ask me a question.
Deboki Chakravarti: I'm curious, over the course of the podcast, have you found yourself increasingly drawn to specific topics or specific themes? What is for you, the thing that tiny matters enables?
Sam Jones: Yeah, I mean, you've witnessed this in our listeners, probably. They don't always know which topics are coming from me or which ones are coming from you, or we like to always give shout outs to listeners who have suggested topics. I am always drawn to the more morbid, let's say. Yeah, I don't know. I think because my PhD is in biomedical science, a lot of stuff, I am inherently drawn to things that have medical implications, health implications that are disease related oftentimes that have a really interesting historical element of people trying to understand a disease or treat a disease. So I knew that this was an interest of mine, but then all of a sudden I start looking at the topics that I have, and I'm like, okay, we got to space these out. This is a little extreme. And then you come in with, and this is actually, I can ask the same question back to you fortunately have really, although I think our interests are overlapping, we also are drawn to very different types of stories, at least initially. And so yeah, tell me about what you found.
Deboki Chakravarti: Yeah, I mean, the thing that I wasn't expecting, I think one of the things that really united us from the beginning is we both love history of science. So from the beginning, that was a thing that we both had in common is something we love to talk about in the episodes. And then when I started working on more episodes, the thing that I realized I was increasingly drawn to, which I did not expect, was evolution. I mean, I also come from bio, but I was not a person who was super excited about evolutionary biology when I was in undergrad or grad school. But then I was working on journey to the microcosmos and I was working a lot on understanding microbes. And all of that gets so into so many questions of evolution. And then when I started writing for Tiny Matters, I felt like so many of the episodes I took on that were biology related, if there was an evolution angle, I always really wanted to take it because I just was really curious about, and I think it's kind of a history element too, of what's the history of this trait or whatever.
One of the episodes I wrote was, can evolution go backwards? That's not even an evolution of a trait that's just like, what does evolution look like? So that's been one of the things that surprised me about the topics that I'm increasingly drawn to.
Sam Jones: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, you just mentioned one episode, but do you have any episodes or an episode that you feel like when someone asks you, what's an episode I should listen to, or what's your favorite episode that you turn to?
Deboki Chakravarti: I mean, so definitely another one from the recent past would be the Placenta episode. That's one where I also talked to an evolutionary biologist, and that was so cool. Learning about the evolution of the placenta is incredible, both, so obviously essential for childbirth. And so a lot of us, I didn't really think about the placenta until I got pregnant for the first time, and I was like, right, the placenta is a thing I've heard about, but I know nothing about.
Sam Jones: I just want to say also having just not so long ago seeing the placenta that came out after my baby, I knew the placenta was big, but holy moly, it is massive, massive. Anyways, it's just crazy looking and cool, kind of gross. Cool. But just, I don't know,
Deboki Chakravarti: I treasured the photo of my placenta. And also I know that it is a disgusting photo.
Sam Jones: Yes. Oh, absolutely. I'm like, I will not be showing that to anyone except for my sister who's like, “show it to me.” Who I will say also just texted me a photo of her placenta out of the blue, and I was like, you have to provide a warning for that.
Deboki Chakravarti: Yeah. It's also funny because we're calling it our placenta. It's really our child's placenta. But no, no, I built
Sam Jones: That. Okay. Yeah, it's true. Very true. I guess we built it kind of together, but you know…
Deboki Chakravarti: Yeah. And so if you want to understand more about how you build the placenta with your baby, you can listen to the placenta episode. But also, yeah, the evolution of the placenta was so cool just on that level of just like, right, that was an organ that I needed to be born and also to make my child, but also, it's really cool because the placenta is such an interesting example of organ development and helping scientists understand how organs evolve because it's evolved so many different times in different animals. And I just did not appreciate that at all. And so working on that episode was so much fun. Yeah, I think that's one of my main ones from the recent past.
Sam Jones: Yeah, no, it was a great episode. It was so cool. I learned so much, and I also was going through and making edits and listening to it when I was pregnant, and so it was just really fun.
Deboki Chakravarti: Yeah. How about you? What's your episode?
Sam Jones: Yeah, so I will say there are so many, but I would say the one in the more recent past that I think stands out to me is the episode that talked about Karen wetter ha, who was the chemist at Dartmouth who was exposed to Methylmercury and ended up dying from it. That episode I know, again, very morbid, but I think there were a lot of really important safety protocols that came from that. And I was able to speak to Dr. David Nirenberg, who was the physician that actually treated her back in 1997. So this was going on 30 years ago. So it was really amazing that I was able to track him down based on a New York Times article that came out in 1998, found his name, finally found him. It was kind of hard to get in contact with him, but I was very, this is where the journalist side of me was like, I am getting this interview.
This is happening. And so it was really fascinating kind of hearing from him about not only trying to figure out what was going on with Dr. Wetter Han, the chemist who'd been exposed to Mercury, but how there was really just no information on the toxicology of methyl mercury at that point. And so how he and the team of physician scientists figured out what had actually happened and how, actually, sorry, it was dimethyl mercury and how dimethyl Mercury could actually go straight through a latex glove. It could actually go through a lot of different types of gloves, and that was just unknown. And it's like a couple tiny drops of dimethyl mercury was all it took for her to essentially her whole nervous system to ultimately collapse.
It was just, I mean, just really heartbreaking. But also hearing from him about how she gave him her blessing essentially, to talk about her. She knew that she was dying, and she said, if talking about me is going to prevent this from happening in the future, then please, you have to share this story. So anyways, that one was really intense. It was very intense to report. It was intense just in terms of the time that was spent in, but well worth it. Some episodes take a lot longer than others to track down sources to really feel like we have something that's super complete, but they feel worth it. So that was one of them. And that was only part of the episode. The other episode was about prion exposure, misfolded protein exposure, like things like Mad Cow and whatnot. But there, there have been a couple of cases of prion exposures in labs and the lab workers dying a decade or so down the road, and likely having that be the cause. And that also has led to a lot of conversations and some changes in the field for people who work with prion in their research to try and understand essentially how to treat it. There's no treatment for a prion disease. So anyway, yeah, it was not an upper of an episode, but it was, I think, a really interesting and important look at how things, again, historically, how things have happened. And people have then said, we need to make changes. And it's making the fields so much safer and helping inform people who do that research. These are the real risks, and you have to be cautious and in a way that we didn't realize we had to be so cautious.
Deboki Chakravarti: Right. Yeah. I think I remember from lab how easy it is to get kind of cavalier about what you're working with because you're just kind of used to it. You take it for granted that these reagents, they might not be great for you, but nothing's going to happen. And I thought that episode was a really great reminder of the fact that a lot of the things that you're working with and some labs are going to be dangerous. And yeah, it's important to know.
Sam Jones: Yeah, absolutely. And I will say, so I'd wanted to do an episode on this, but then actually the kind of impetus was that the American Chemical Society, which is the nonprofit scientific organization that creates this podcast, I am a full-time employee, and Deboki is also employed by ACS. There was an initiative to really look at around that time of the year to look at lab safety stuff. And so immediately when I saw that, I was like, this is actually great timing, because that's exactly what this episode would be about at the end of the day. There's a lot of really interesting science in there, but in terms of actually thinking about safety and safety changes. So I want to now rewind a little bit to Deboki and talk about how the podcast got started. So I was, before becoming exec producer of Tiny Matters, I was working, so I was the writer and host of ACS-PBS YouTube series called Reactions. So as a chemistry YouTube series, it's a blast. I mean, it's a great series. You should absolutely go check it out. And I'm still very close with my colleagues who are working on it and love PBS. It was a great experience. But I was also at the time working on a podcast through ACS called Orbitals, and it was a podcast that got started well before I had joined ACS. I kind of revived it. I think they had only put out one or two episodes, and then the person who was working on it left. And so I sort of revived it, but there wasn't a really clear vision or plan in place. Well, although we had some really fun or really interesting episodes. And so I was grateful for that and for that opportunity to really hone my skills.
It was a great experience, and the writing and hosting of the video stuff was a great experience, but I was realizing that I loved audio as a medium. So I've also done a lot of print and digital writing and that kind of stuff too. So at this point, I've done a mix of things, and I'll say that audio is by far my favorite. It's so fun. It’s intense in a different way, but I find it to be very, very gratifying. And I love that podcasts are so accessible to people versus a lot of other things. And it's this thing that you can take with you wherever you go. And I love that. And I'm also someone who just listens to a million podcasts. So I had the opportunity to pitch an idea for a new podcast to the American Chemical Society and Sunset Orbitals. So I pitched a podcast that was tentatively called a number of things. I can't remember. There was a really long list of potential names for this podcast. And essentially, I came up with a proposal over the course of a couple months. I pitched the idea, it went up the chain to the executives, CEO, all of that. And then I got the green light, which was super exciting. But then there was the question of, am I just doing this solo or am I going to co-host it?
And I'm someone who is a huge fan of co-hosted podcasts because I think it's just really fun to be able to hear, first off, hear multiple voices, but then also, I think the stories are just always better because you have more than one person who's influencing the interview or the topics. We just said. Tiny Matters would be a very different thing. If it was just me, I think hopefully someone would check me on it and be like, okay, you need to stop with all the disease episodes. But it's just helpful having someone to bounce ideas off of who's so invested as well. So anyway, then I was like, okay, but who will this co-host be? And I was looking for someone pretty specific in a sense that they had a science background and they really liked multimedia stuff, had experience, and also writing for it, not just, oh, I've hosted, done some shorts or reels or whatever, but really have experience doing this kind of writing and hosting. And so you and I were actually in the same science video, multimedia Slack Group, and I knew that you'd also just recently done a podcast series for Scientific American that you did a bunch of writing and hosting for Complexly, which is the producers of Crash Course and Scishow and Journey to the Microcosmos and all of that. So I was like, “Hey, we don't really know each other, but we sort of know each other and do you want to do a pilot episode with me?” And it was literally a five minute episode, kind of like an intro. We tried it a couple different ways,
Deboki Chakravarti: And at that point, I think it was still, it was just a pilot. It wasn't like an official podcast. And it was also, I wasn't sure, this felt very first date-y to me. It was
Sam Jones: Very, yeah, it totally was. It was like, are we a good match?
Deboki Chakravarti: Are we a good match? Yeah. Is she going to like me if this becomes a podcast? Do I get to be on the podcast? But it was very fun. It was super fun to do. I remember working on that pilot and just being like, this is fun. I like this. This is a good time.
Sam Jones: Totally.
Deboki Chakravarti: I hope I get to do it.
Sam Jones: Yeah, no, absolutely. I was like, will this be, because if we had gone into it, and then I'd been like, oh, Deboki really doesn't care about this, and this is just absurdly awkward, then I would've been like, thank you so much for your time. See you on Slack. But I thought it went really well. I am glad that you also, it's so funny, we actually haven't even talked about this ever.
Deboki Chakravarti: I know. We've never broken down our experience.
Sam Jones: We were like, alright, we're doing it. Keep it moving. But yeah, I was also nervous. I was like, is Deboki going to be like, what is this?
Deboki Chakravarti: Oh, no. I mean, I'm a freelancer. So inherently any opportunity that comes my way, I have to at least give three minutes to be like, okay, I'm going to seriously consider this. And this was like, I don't need three minutes. It's like, okay, Sam seems cool. This podcast seems cool. I want to do more podcasts. It all made sense. So yeah, no, totally.
Sam Jones: Okay. Well, that makes me feel happy.
Deboki Chakravarti: It would be terrible if for four years, and I was like, actually, I hate this podcast actually. What am I doing here?
Sam Jones: I've been miserable for four years.
Deboki Chakravarti: Yeah. I hate audio.
Sam Jones: Yeah, this is the worst medium. So then, honestly, that was probably almost exactly four years ago probably. Yeah, it was definitely,
Deboki Chakravarti: It was pandemic era. That was another thing too that I think made it exciting. We were all hunkered down. I did that Scientific American project, but I was writing it, hosting it. It was a single hosted kind of thing. And so it was super fun to work on, but also I wanted more projects that I could do with other people too. But then also, that was when a lot of media started becoming more, I mean, a lot of other industries, a lot of media became more comfortable with doing things like remote shoots. I was filming Crash course at the time, and we filmed that remotely in a room in my house, because that was what we had to do to be able to keep filming. We couldn't fly me out to Montana every time we needed to do a shoot. So it was a very weird time, and it was really fun to have a new project and a new friend. Yeah,
Sam Jones: Totally. I mean, yeah, it would've been fall of 2020 that I reached out to you, which was a weird time.
So since then, a lot of things have happened. I mean, again, we're nearing our hundredth episode. I guess just on the professional side of things, we have won multiple signal awards, which is very exciting, including a gold award for Best Science podcast, which is amazing. We won a Communicator Award of Excellence, which is the highest honor you can get from the Communicator Awards. We've also won some Silver Awards from Signal and for the work that I've done as exec producer in launching the podcast and getting things going, I won an award from the National Academies, which was super exciting last year. So I went out to Pasadena for that. It was this big ceremony and just, yeah, it was just so cool. Yeah, the Eric and Wendy Schmidt Science, it's a very long title, but essentially it's an excellence in science communication. And that felt really good because it's a pretty prestigious award that I applied to thinking like, nope, I'd applied the year before as well and heard nothing. And so that was a very fun surprise and such an amazing experience.
Yeah, it's just been so cool. Seeing this podcast grow, getting awards is nice. It feels really good. It's validating in certain ways, but for me, getting really amazing emails and tiny show and tell us suggestions and that kind of thing, that's my favorite. That is by far my favorite.
Deboki Chakravarti: Yeah, I think one of the coolest things for me has been talking. I had a conversation with a friend the other day who's like, I was listening to podcasts on Apple Podcasts and Tiny Matters came up, and then I was like, oh, that's de Bokey.
Sam Jones: Yeah, totally. No, it's so funny. Or people will be like, I was on YouTube and randomly your face showed up on YouTube shorts. I'm like, that would be me.
Deboki Chakravarti: There was a time I was researching something for something else, for another work project in Sam's video for reactions I think came up. I was like, great. Thank you, Sam.
Sam Jones: Yeah, I'm so glad I could help you with that research. Thank you. Yeah, I didn't know four years ago that I would be helping so much.
Deboki Chakravarti: No, but that's why you made the video.
Sam Jones: Absolutely.
Deboki Chakravarti: But yeah, I think anytime you make something, especially for the internet, it feels like you just put things out there and then it's like, does anyone listen? Does anyone watch? I don't know, but I'm going to still make it. And so when you have those moments of somebody like a friend being like, I just accidentally came upon your podcast. It wasn't even me telling them to listen to it. Or one of my son's daycare teachers, she was telling me that her mom listens to the podcast, and it just came up randomly. I was like,
Sam Jones: Oh, that's so cool. Well, you know what? Actually, when I was at the National Academies ceremony in Pasadena, the husband of one of the award winners came up to me and was like, she actually came up to me and was like, my husband is kind of starstruck because he listens to Tiny Matters. And I was like, oh my God, that's actually hilarious to me, because when someone would say starstruck in combination with my name, I'm like, why? I'm really not that interesting, guys. But it was really fun. And then where I grew up, one of my parents' neighbors listened to the podcast and then realized it was me and is super into it. And that was really fun to hear. And yeah, I've had a few of those experiences as well where people have been like, wait, hold on. Oh, oh, that's you.
Yeah, that's me. And it's fun having those sort of organic experiences of like, oh, you're listening. And I didn't say, I didn't text you being like, can you please listen to my podcast?
Deboki Chakravarti: I have this problem living in Massachusetts where sometimes I'll get something at a store and tell people my name, and they will ask, oh, Meghna Chakrabarti, who I think is one of, I forget what station she works on. She's a really well known radio journalist.
So I've had a lot of moments of being like, yeah, that's the same last name, but I don't know that we're related or anything like that. And there was one time where I was, someone was like, oh, I've heard your last name or Your name sounds familiar. And I was like, you're probably thinking of Meghna Chakrabarti. And they're like, no, I don't think so. I was like, oh, do you listen to the things that I work on? It's just really cool. It's really fun. I don't know. It feels so self-indulgent to be here and be like, totally, oh, you guys listen. But it's because it's really, really cool that you guys listen to us and contribute with your emails and comments and ratings and all of that. It's all amazing.
Sam Jones: Yeah, yeah. Please rate us. It's so helpful if you rate us, it's so, so helpful. But yeah, no, I totally agree. And I think I have such a, I guess, parasocial relationship with a lot of the hosts of the podcast that I listen to. So it's just such a fun thing to think that we also kind of have a relationship with our listeners because Yeah, it's cool. And if you send us emails, you post comments and ratings, we notice it's us. I am actively looking at everything.
Deboki Chakravarti: I think something we didn't talk about is Multitude.
Sam Jones: Yes. Let's do that. Let's talk about Multitude. So I guess it would be just about a year ago, we became part of Multitude. So Multitude is a podcast collaborative based in New York City. So many cool podcasts are part of Multitude. So it was really fun becoming part of Multitude as well. What that meant was sending a proposal. I love writing proposals, sending a proposal that we should be part of Multitude,
And going through some interviews and them getting to know us, us getting to know them. And ultimately they said, yeah, come join our crew. And really what it means is ACS is still the creator of the podcast. It's produced through Multitude now, and that allows us to have ads that the podcast can then make money from, and then that helps with production costs and all that stuff. So it's cool in terms of being able to actually have sponsors and ads, but also really the benefit is that we are part of this really cool podcasting community and people who are making these really thoughtful, interesting podcasts that some of them are science related, but a lot of them are not. Some are like comedy related, history related, mythology related. There's so many cool things that are produced by Multitude. So definitely check out Multitude, check out some of their other podcasts. But it's been a really fun experience.
Deboki Chakravarti: And if you're ever looking for Sam and me on other podcasts, you can check out those other podcasts. Sometimes we'll appear on them. And then I think you can also become a member of Multitude, and they have special little member podcasts that we participate in. They're fun games and stuff like that. So if you want more of us, if you want more of other multitude hosts, there's a lot to do there.
Sam Jones: Tons of bonus content to become part of the multi-crew. So definitely go check that out if it's interesting. Yeah, I mean, we've been gabbing and it's been great, but we can wrap this up. Okay, we get it. We get it. But I guess what I want to say is, first off, thank you second, we really do take your feedback really seriously. We appreciate your feedback. And so in that vein, we will do a survey next year. I'm thinking early 2026 when everybody gets back from the holidays and whatnot. We will in our newsletter. Oh yeah. We have a newsletter also that'll get started up. Yeah. Oh my gosh, there's so many. We missed a lot of things that have happened. Deboki and I also both had babies over the last four years. It's been hectic. There's a lot happening. I also got married over the last four years. Yeah, we could go on. Things keep happening.
But yeah, so we will definitely send out a survey and that will help us make the podcast even better for all of you. And also episode 100, it's going to be out very soon, I think. I believe it's the episode that closes out the year. Yeah, it's close out 2025. And we won't spoil it, but it's going to be about topics that got us into science, so you can only imagine that mine might be disease related. Alright. All right. Well, DeBakey, thanks for being part of Tiny Matters for almost four years and a hundred episodes and a hundred episodes, not counting bonus episodes either.
Deboki Chakravarti: Thanks for asking me to be a part of Tiny Matters. I'm so glad to be working on this podcast with you and have all of these awesome listeners.
Sam Jones: Yeah, absolutely. Alright, we love you, our listeners. We'll see you soon.
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